The Separation of Church and State was originally used exclusively to keep the state out of the church’s business, not to keep the church out of the state’s business. Most clergy walk a fine line when it involves politics. When there’s risk to offend particular views that have strong emotional, ethical and moral values, the necessity to be neutral will frequently win out. Regardless of your Christian background, we should all thank Jesus for his political activism everyday - he was not neutral and as a political being, well ahead of his time.

Wherever we find ourselves, to the extent that our governing officials allow participation in politics, we as Christians should be active to help restrain evil in our society by our presence and movement within the structure as well as to help government define it's proper limited role in the function of a society so as to limit effects of corruption on the masses. We must always speak. We must always heal regardless of whether we are given freedom to do so as we answer to God who is above all. To present a message of truth, one is political especially if what you are saying is discernably opposed to status quo.

Lies and hate from a so called preacher does not constitute a prophet. Your stead fast defense of him hurts your creditability with your members. You shouldn't defend the actions of a crazy man. Nothing in the bible reflects him other than maybe the devil. I believe you owe the church an apology

Harvey-Amen,brother!
Mike- I pray that you start using this blog to bring people together. It seems like you are bringing your own agenda items aboard. This blog could be much more constructive,IMHO. Blessings!

Wow, some of these comments are very saddening. It's amazing to see how mean "christians" can be towards each other. I agree with Lisa Sowry on a previous post...there is no need to get mean on here. If Mike's agenda items of saving people's lives from being oppressed, mutilated, raped and killed (setting the oppressed free - isn't that what Jesus wanted?) are so crazy, then I am a crazy person too and proud of it! I am so proud of you, dad, for taking a stand and for making a difference. I am glad there are people like you who have the courage to make a difference rather than let things happen because they want to remain comfortable. Again, you are such an amazing example of what a christian should be like and that is obvious by the fruit that is produced in your life. I only wish others who are so critical of you and what you do would be willing to make some sort of difference in this world rather than critize you for actually doing something. I love you, dad, and am so proud of what you and mom are doing at the church and in the world! I only hope Brendan and I can be as good of an example to our future children and the world as you and mom have been!

I often wonder if we have blurred the line between being political and being nationalistic (here I don't mean patriotic but rather holding up 'nation' in an idolic and sinful way). I was recently in a small country church that, after the opening prayer and before the pastor could say "Amen", everyone stood up together on cue, put their hands over their hearts and said the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America that was standing proudly in the corner. I began to wonder to myself, "is it God or Country that we are worshiping here?"

I agree that Jesus was very political. He was willing to engage the social issues, wrestle with the powers and principalities and stand for the hurting and oppressed. But I have a hard time imagining Jesus standing in the synagogue and pledging his allegiance to anyone or anything other than God. Perhaps our practice of ugly partisan politics has so infected our lives that we have swung to extremes on either side, either in inappropriate nation worship or, on the other side by shying so far away from politics all together, that we have stripped Jesus, faith and the church of any political power at all. It seems to me that the church needs to be a place that follows the example of Jesus and speak truth to power. Speaking truth to power will always place the church squarely in the arena of the political.

As I was reading the comments on this particular topic tonight, I was already in a reflective and somewhat melancholy frame of mind. A movie I had recently seen titled, "Michael Clayton" really made me think and was one of the very best movies I have ever seen. Being a fairly intense movie, I began to think, "the murder of one Prophet and the awakening of another Prophet". The 1st Prophet put me in mind of Jeremiah Wright and certainly not in all respects but in the expression of deeply felt passion and conviction. The 2nd Prophet awakened somewhere in the final 1/3 of the movie. He was much different in his assimilation and subsequent action in relation to his new-found understanding of the truth. He was to my joy very successful in his handling of the situation he found himself in. Things rarely go that well for a Prophet in the revelation of truth that is communicated through them. There was a profound element and expression of justice that was refreshing. The spiritual elements were superbly done. I am very blessed to be able to even express what I think and feel here on this blog. It is a release of gifting from the Holy Spirit that gives me a sense of productive purpose and a sense of being a part of what God is doing. I personally take part in Politics as much as possible and I do believe any contribution matters. God hears our prayers concerning this arena, but we cannot control His ways.

I was riding the Metro in Washington D.C. Monday evening, the car I was in was pretty much filled, almost every seat was taken but for 5 people who were standing near a door. 3 Women and 2 children. The 2 children, both girls were somewhere between 8 and 12 I would guess. The woman kept urging the children to fight. One child would hit the other and the child would step back and lean on one of the women who would push her and urge her to kick back or hit or retaliate somehow and the girl would then step up and try and kick the other child and it just went on and on with kicking, hiting, biting as the children cried the women laughed. It was awful. I was so hurt to hear these women and see these children being urged to hurt each other but like everyone else in that particular car, I sat still, shaking my head and intensely staring in shock. I did nothing. I did nothing and it's been haunting me. What would Jesus do? In my mind he would have stepped in somehow, either in anger or in love but he would have done something. And I don't beleive that would have anything to do with politics. It's following the word of God, (No greater love has one than this....). I don't beleive Jesus was political at all. In my mind I don't see him as one who gave a hoot for the laws of the day or the rules of the pharosees or being politically correct. In my mind he said pay your taxes (give to Caeser what is Caesers) but follow God.

God bless you, Mike, for taking a stand for what is right and just and for encouraging us to do so also.

Was Jesus Political? (The original question) I suppose my answer would be yes - again. I would also agree with Suzanne and didn’t see the conversation moving in the "Wright" direction.
The rest of this does not belong to me but contains what I studied this week...Thanks!
The fundamental nature of Jesus’ message was unequivocally religious. Nonetheless, Christ’s message had political corollaries.
Followers of Jesus understand the dual application of His preaching, that they were to be citizens of two worlds — a heavenly kingdom and the kingdoms of this world. They understood what Jesus was talking about when He commanded in Matthew 22:21: "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesars; and unto God the things that are God's." They would not worship the Roman Emperor as a god, and, many therefore, paid with their lives. Yet the pressure and agitation they wielded on Roman culture did much to improve the plight of women and slaves, protect defenseless children, abolish the gladiatorial games, and provide humane treatment for prisoners and the poor.
Jesus once chased the moneychangers out of the Temple with a whip because He said they had corrupted it (Mark 11:15-17). He called Herod a "fox" (Luke 13:32). These remarks and actions by Christ were both spiritual and political in nature.

I must apologize. I kind of mixed up the two topics of "Self-righteous anger" and "Was Jesus Political"...not sure how that happened. I must have clicked on the wrong topic accidently. Anyway.....Jesus was very political with His own people. He just spoke and people came. They were healed etc. Even the Pharisees listened to Him at least long enough to agree or try to kill. Often He was in the temple were His people already were and it was with them that He got into it with. They were the only ones He corrected in an aggressive manner. It's not documented in the four gospels if He approached Non-Israelites aggressively with motive of corrective speech. He drove the Moneychangers out of the temple but again, they were His own people. His Apostles were certainly a bit more verbal and as He they spoke truth as they found themselves in the company and courts of the unbeliever. As the message spread, the Gentiles began to be much more involved in the overt persecution of Christians.
The story of the two young girls is so tragic. I'm not sure what I would have done, but knowing me, I would've gotten in some trouble with the Mothers. For that, I would have no regret. I would've have been more concerned at that point with "how" I presented what I presented. But that seems to be my focus because I've always been accused of having a big mouth especially with my family. In some situations, I think we would be viewed favorably if we spoke at all even if we made mistakes. We all have our journey and dealing with situations we're faced with is a challenge for all of us. We become political especially in the spiritual realm when we are born of Spirit. Everything we are speaks to the world of Christ. Let it out. Sweet. M

Suzanne- Re:yourMay 10th blog. Great post. I agree totally. Jesus would have responded to the Metro incident in some fashion, not taking into account the manmade laws of the time. Some very good points in both direction have been made on this blog (whether I agree or not).
Kristen- you should be proud of your dad. My point was that if you go back to the conception of these blogs, their
content has changed drastically. I would ask myself" What is the best for my congregation- what do they need to hear",and that seemed to be the message in the beginning. Please refer back. I just see, and it's only my opinion, that issues such as J. Wright need to stop ( they should never have been brought forward to begin with) because "Are they for the greater good? " "Do they bring us
together in Christ, or divide us, as one man blogged in.One final note that has been a concern of mine. Michaiah-we used to know you as Julia- I hope you have found some serenity in your life.Are you at GUM now, or at CLC? Your constant blogging about prophets is a concern for those who know you, and care for you. Just wantd to pass this on. Blessings!

To me, Wright is an anachronism; his spirit is rooted in the civil disobedience and mass mobilization of the 1960's but his rhetoric is tainted by intimations of modern punditry and "cult of personality."

For example, while I think it insightful of him to leverage biblical principles like the sins of a father being visited up on subsequent generations when talking about the 9/11 attacks in juxtaposition to U.S. involvement in overthrowing democratic governments in South America and the Middle East, I scratched my head when he brought up the Tuskeegee Study and proceeded to draw the conclusion that epidemic propagation of the AIDS virus is comparably sinister.

Whatever happens, for me two things are true: first, I won't let Wright's behavior influence my opinion of Obama for better or worse any more than I would let Mike Slaughter's behavior influence my opinion of elected officials who attend Ginghamsburg. Second, Wright is a very interesting person and I am eager to learn more about him, as far removed from the warped lens of 24-hour news channels as possible.

Mike, this may be well known except for me but the racism is both ways. I have worked on the west side of Dayton for 28 years. Afro Americans do not want whites to move into their neighborhoods even to this day. This may have been a major problem in white neighborhoods decades ago but is still very active in all afro american neighborhoods. Wonder if anyone is working on that end of the spectrim.

Let me just say this; I watched the Moyers program as well as the Wright address to the Detroit Chapter of the NAACP. I’ve also made it a point to listen to a few of his sermons. (I’ll tell you one thing; it’s an experience you won’t find in Tipp City) It’s no wonder we have racism in this country when spiritual leaders are making comments like those spoken by Pastor Wright. I would never, ever, EVER take my family to Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago for spiritual needs. Here’s what Obama had to say:

“The person that I saw yesterday was not the person that I met 20 years ago. His comments were not only divisive and destructive, but I believe that they end up giving comfort to those who prey on hate, and I believe that they do not portray accurately the perspective of the black church…”

Obama now speaks from a political perspective but his words are more in line with how most Americans feel.

I don’t hate Pastor Wright. I do think we need to measure man based on actions and spoken words. We’ll all be held accountable for who and what we are.

I was challenged by your views on the Popes visit (pomp and circumstance) without considering first the positive mission the trip had on America while at the same time defending Pastor Wright without considering his racial un-American comments over the years. If you really listen to what he has to say about race, religion, society, government and his fellow man, I’m not sure how anyone can take this man seriously. What we have here is his fifteen minutes of fame.

Mike,
I understand your sensitivity on this issue regarding Rev. Wright. However, I find it strange that you continue to call this man a prophet of God. Jeremiah Wright and Jeremiah of the Bible are NOT comparable. Please do not use their name connection as license to draw comparison. Jeremiah of the OT spoke as a vessel of the Lord. His words were harsh, but they were not his words, they were God's and they were directed at a people who had forsaken Him. Jeremiah wept at the judgement the Lord proclaimed on his disobedient children. In contrast, Jeremiah Wright speaks from his own mouth, shares his own distorted perspectives and has yet to quote any scripture in conjunction with his professions. He has not shown any signs of remorse for his words and shows no signs of humility. I don't care what race you are from, what level of religious education, or what doctrine you hold to, he has shown himself to be a false prophet if anything. Of course, it is not my place to say whether Rev. Wright knows the Lord or not, but I cannot stand to hear a man called a prophet who is not. I pray that the Holy Spirit would take hold of him and bring him into obedience before the Lord. He has a powerful voice that if given in submission to the Lord would be a mighty vessel in the hands of an Almighty God!
Mike, I also find it strange that as a pastor you choose to use your blog for controversial political and social topics only. Why not encourage your congregation by sharing what the Lord is showing you out of the word? or giving testimonies to the Glory of God? At the very least, if you want to continue sharing along the current topic line, why not share from the Word what God has to say about the plans of man, religiousity and our response to Him despite the world? I have been reading this blog for some time and it appears that the majority of discussions are not uplifting and are divisive in their results. I know that this is not your goal, but it is a recurring result of your posts.

Josh- thank you for speaking out in Truth what so many of us feel. J. Wright is certainly no prophet, his hate and anger are his alone- listen to his sermons on Glen Beck,if you have the stomach for it. These are not the words of God. Too many people use "prophet" unBiblically and unwisely. And for this blog- it has become devisive and political. I'm sure that it could be used more wisely- to bring people together, not to separate them. As Solomon said," The tongue has the power of life and death". Blessings!

Liberation Theology is not at all in line with the teachings of Jesus. From what I have seen and read it is more of a marxist-political movement that has been gift wrapped as theology by people like Jeremiah Wright. I encourage everyone to read about James Cone who is considered the father of black liberation theology. He published a book in 1969 called Black Theology and Black Power. Jeremiah Wright refers to him often when discussing his theological beliefs.

Mike Slaughter’s multi dimensional views and topics in this forum demonstrate his multiculturalism. Diverse cultures and religious backgrounds define Ginghamsburg Church – in my humble opinion. I would encourage Pastor Slaughter to post his views and topics whatever they may be.

I agree with you Rich. We should always first seek to understand then be understood. Mike is on another playing field but I do believe his friendship and past relationship and respect of Wright has made this a very difficult situation for him. I believe he has changed his stance on this situation significantly as he does more research.

It was easy for me to feel the hatred coming from Wright because I had no previous relationship with him.

I enjoy this blog as it causes me to reflect, and go deep in the pursuit of my personal feelings about these current event topics and this in turn causes me to take an honest look at whether or not my feelings and convictions line up with Jesus. Needless to say, I've still got a lot of work to do.

There is one glaring mistake you continue to make Pastor Slaughter in always coming to Rev. Wrights defense; Jeremiah Wright is not a prophet in the biblical understanding of the office of prophet. He may be a lot of things, but being a "prophet" is not one of them.

Thanks Jay. I think we're all in the same boat!

Wayne,

Liberation Theology originated in Catholic churches in South America; it was the culmination of centuries of exploitation and subjugation at the hands of European conquerors and in some instances the church itself. Although admittedly it has been appropriated for many dubious purposes in the past few decades, given the context of its origin I find it rather difficult to discount entirely.

Ira-could you present your sources, please? My understanding is different than yours and I have been researching "Liberation Theology" since J. Wright made his speeches. I wanted to delve further into this issue. From my understanding and study, "Liberation Theology" and "Black Liberation Theology" are 2 different entities ,altogether. The Catholic Library speaks from a liberation of sin, and multiple other issues, but is Biblical in nature. "Black Liberation Theology" according to NPR and other sources, states that it's beginnings are in 1966, when over 50 black
pastors assembled and demanded relief from racism. The founder is James Cone- a civil rights activist. I find both Liberation Theories to have wonderful components, yet they are not one in the same. Blessings!

While we at GUM will mourn the departure of the Bowie family, it is totally understandable why they need to return to Houston. Family cannot be replaced by even the closest of friends. Recovering from a traumatic brain injury is NOT like recovering from a broken bone. The brain is still very much a medical mystery and as a result there are no hard and fast timetables. My wife and I have experienced this firsthand with a major brain injury her sister suffered from an automobile accident. What is needed most is rest, time and PATIENCE.

Thank you Bowie for the blessing you have been in my life!!!

To the Bowie family, you will have our continued prayer support!

God Speed in your recovery!

Selfishly, I don't want you to go, but I know this is the right thing because God directs us for a reason. Even though you and I have never met on an individul basis, you have had made a HUGE impact on my life through your messages and BBS, and I am so grateful to you for that. So I am sad that you are leaving, but I know good things are around the corner for you and your family. You are loved wherever you go. Judy

It is with great sadness that my family see you all go, but it's the journey you are on right now. So, we will accept it and continue to pray for ALL of you. Please feel the love and support that is around you. You will all be missed.

We will always be so thankful to have the Bowies in our family. They have been so wonderful to us and have special love for our daughter Lexi. We feel blessed to have them in our lives and are so thankful to what they have brought to our church. Janette will always be a sister in Christ to me and she really feels this is God's timing. Selfishly, I want them to stay, but really I want what is best for their family. I know God has his hand on them and I know he has great plans for their lives. On behalf of our family.......thank you for being so wonderful. We love you all so much!!!

Ginghamsburg Church has forever been changed by the wonderful presence (and presents) of Mike Bowie. I've been at GUM for nearly 15 years, and have witnessed the many staff changes over the years. With no disrespect for the awesome work of current and past staff members, Mike Bowie has managed to leave a phenomenal mark on the DNA of Ginghamsburg like no other that I have seen. I'll especially miss his hugs that we shared everytime we met. And, I've always told everyone that whenever I left one of his sermons or BBS sessions, I always felt more uplifted and with a sense of hope after I left. I truly believe that God's has used Mike (and Mike Slaughter) to convey message of love and hope.

He will be truly missed, but never forgotten.

The main Worship Center has been transformed over the past few years, especially with his Bowie Bible Study.

And because of his awesome "imprint" on the Worship Center, maybe it would be possible to rename it in his honor...the Bowie Worship Center...as a reminder to us all how he touched lives the lives of so many who entered down and broken, but emerged with a new sense of faith, love and hope.

Thank you Mike Bowie for letting God use you in such an awesome way! Your passion to teach God's word has been a blessing to me and my family and we pray that God will continue to guide your life as He has for many years! Many prayers and blessings to you and your family.

Mike Bowie and his family have been such a blessing to all of us at GUM and even those beyond the walls of GUM. He has touched so many lives in his time spent here. As others have posted, the greedy side of me is wanting the Bowies to stay, but I know there are big plans for the entire Bowie family that God has in store. It's often so difficult ro realize that God has a plan in the middle of grief, but Mike and family, thank you for your many blessings, you are and will remain a true gift to GUM and the entire Miami Valley. You will be missed so much, but prayed for daily.

To both "Mikes"....this situation that has so much impacted us as individuals, as families and as a church can be celebrated as a new beginning for everyone. On the weekend of Dec 29th, Bowie preached about "Crossing Over" based on the book of Joshua. I absolutely love that sermon and it has impacted my life on my own purpose. The words that Bowie spoke, we can revisit and embrace: "Sometimes it takes physical examples to bring spiritual intructions", God isn't done with Mike Bowie and he is certainly not done with Mike Slaughter! We need to have faith that God is preparing all of us for His devine purpose for our future. Bowie had mentioned that the "Great Debate" movie was a favorite of his and the line he liked was "We do what we have to do now, so we can do what we have to do later." Not even realizing when he said that, a few weeks later he would be going through a tramatic experience. We all stood on faith and did anticipate a miracle for Bowie. We know God holds the future for all of us, and we will continue to believe that we accept what His plan is for everyone.
Warmest blessings to all.

Mike and family, I speak for my family...We hate to see you and your family leave us. You all have been a huge blessing for Ginghamsburg. I have been attending GUM for about 15 years, when you arrived you filled in the link that was missing. I pray for safe recovery and hope one day you all will be able to come back to our "corn field" in little Tipp City.

Mike Bowie has been a breathe of the Spirit of God and has taught us all how to be bold and couragous- he hasn't lost this battle at all. He has won. Bringing the church together in one accord in prayer and seeking God in deeper ways than ever before. God is moving because of the boldness of his spirit and NO weapon Forged against Him shall prosper- something big is about to happen for the Bowie family and it will come about through prayer and trusting the Lord. Ginghamsburg has been blessed by Mike's leadership and Micheal Slaughter is a powerful man of God as well and a strong and loving leader. God isn't done here yet! He is flexing HIS muscles and getting ready to reveal his power and might upon this place!

My family and I are continuing to pray for you and your family during this time. You are an excellent person with an outstanding way of seeing Christ in your eyes. Can I get an Amen? :) I will miss seeing you and your family but with God's wisdom I know he has bigger and better plans for you. God bless!

Mike Bowie has changed my walk with God, I am so very grateful for his presence in our church. However I totally understand why he needs to go home. I would like to see
something out there though. I would love to see a CD set or DVDs for sale for the Bowie Family to benefit and for us to be able to purchase, Is there a way to save some of the Bowie Bible study teachings. He always has a way of sharing to lift you up.
Thank you and God Bless the Bowie Family!

And the Congregation cried after hearing the news...but we are so happy that you are still on your road to being stronger and healthier.You have given all of us so much of yourself and will truely miss you. Our community will continue to keep you and your family in our prayers... and hope you will be back one day to continue to lead us in God's word for all of us. Thank you for being part of our family, please stay in touch with us, we love you and you can't do anything about it. God Bless your Family

About 2 1/2 years ago I had a co-worker that talked to me all the time about this amazing church called Ginghamsburg. He constantly urged me to attend a service to see for myself how intense and exciting and inspiring church could be. Growing up in the Catholic church I liked the comfort of the Mass, but just needed to feel the energy and inspiration and felt like I was incredibly bored with the idea of attending church in general. Until..... the day I walked into Ginghamsburg alone, just to check it out. The pastor speaking that evening was Mike Bowie, the sermon was My Life - God's Purpose. I knew then that I'd found a church I could relate to, and from that day on I've felt more connected to Jesus Christ than I have in my whole life. Mike Bowie and Mike Slaughter have made that difference. Their style of preaching, adding a little bit of the personal touch, thru their own life experiences, the amusing videos, and the incredible, INCREDIBLE contemporary music, all of it combines to make church at Ginghamsburg THE place to be to get connected to Jesus. Thank you so much for forever changing my life.

I have been inspired by Pastor Bowie's sermons, while I was going through hard times. I have been blessed to hear your podcasts everyday during my early morning jog. I will pray for fast recovery of Bowie, and lift him and his family in our daily prayers.

Seems as though that is what we are doing Timmy, moving on and through this together as a family of people who love the Bowie family, eager to see what God has in store.
Many Blessings to You.
:-)

Pastor Bowie.......you and your family will be missed, but you will go with love and prayers of the many lives you have touched. May God bless you in his divine mercy and keep you well.

Dearest Bowie Family,
I still can't think about you all going back home (and leaving your Ohio home) without tears....

Jeannette, from the first time Mike preached at Ginghamsburg, I could see and feel your strong support and love you provide as his wife. (Behind every great man there's an even greater woman!) Your prayers are to die for. You reflect confidence, humility, and a sense of "I'm claiming this truth for me, my family, and those around me!" I see your influence in Lauren...especially with repect to prayer.

Trey beams with the infectious smile of his daddy. He is such a warm young man. He & Lauren both are such an incredible reflection of Jesus and the upbringing of their parents. We are gonna see fabulous things from the Bowie children.

Pastor Bowie, you will always be my "Ressurrection Pastor"--especially for our daughter, Mari. You brought the Holy Spirit to her hospital room that day in March 2005 when you prayed with our cell group to improve her 50/50 odds of survival. You left a peace in that room that continues to stay with our family as we face the "ups & downs" of life on earth. Mari's smile reflects the hope and promise of God's healing to me each day. I will continue to think of your family each time I see her smile!

Well said. Sometimes people are drawn to and seem to respond to an appearance of majesty. It makes them feel that someone holier than they are is running the joint.
I'm not saying that's how it should be. I'm just stating that if the Israelites had a hard time dealing with just God and no king, it doesn't surprise me that the more fleshly or immature we are the greater our felt need is for a strong sense of an awe-inspiring authority to make us feel that we have someone in charge who is like us and yet somehow...more kingly. Just a thought I had about that topic not necessarily for being critical but just for understanding. M

Human beings gravitate to heroes; we view them as people to whose example we can aspire, and in our minds we simultaneously amplify their positive qualities and ignore their idiosyncracies. When their character is assailed, we will even go as far as to tenaciously defend them. In finance it's Donald Trump; in golf it's Tiger Woods; in music it could be any number of bands or artists; in faith, for many people, it's the Pope. While there is nothing inherently wrong with having heroes, we cross the line spiritually when we venerate the signifier rather than the signified. The archetypal hero is Jesus, and losing sight of that causes much conflict and suffering in the world.

Putting anyone or anything on a pedestal is so dangerous and it amazes me how people view the pope. To me it demonstrates a lack of faith in the trinity when you need a "thing" to look up to. I've never liked religion and never will. It gets in the way of my relationship with Christ.

Back in 1859, Abraham Lincoln said (in Cincinnati) “public opinion in this country is everything”. He also takes credit for “better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt”. I’ve decided to opine anyway…I was raised in the Catholic Church at the Immaculate Conception in Dayton. Some of my most fond memories growing up were serving as an alter boy at the 6 AM mass or singing in the choir as a seventh and eighth grader. During our time at the church, there were times where the Archbishop from the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Cincinnati or an occasional Cardinal would visit to share in celebration. And yes, they wore tall hats, long robes and fancy shoes and jewelry. As a child growing up, I thought the pomp and circumstance was just part of the experience. And it was a great experience. I can’t explain why (pomp/circumstance) but it all seemed normal back then – and it still does.

The Pope is one of the most if not the most recognized figures in the world. Where ever he goes, people flock to catch a look or attend one of his limited services. As for the required funding for last weeks mission, and there’s no doubt, this was a mission, I think you have to look at the big picture before passing judgment on the incremental costs. How much incremental funding did the church bring in during the American trip and how will that money be spent. Hopefully, the revenue will exceed the cost and the Catholic charities will benefit.

The Catholic Church is still in mending mode over recent issues of internal abuse. Public opinion is everything in this country and around the world. From a political view, Pope Benedict the XVI found it necessary to come and help mend the public opinion of the church in America. Based on what I’ve seen and read, the church addressed many of the issues it needed to deal with during this trip.

I have to say I wasn't raised knowing God, I wasn't raised in any religion either but I like that the Pope came to this country and I like the festivities. He's not my hero, I don't know anything about what it takes to be a pope, or what his job description is either but I do respect the fact that he's a religious leader and yet as a religious leader he still gets shown the respect as if he was the leader of another country would. I would be excited if Corrie Ten Boom or Mother Teresa (if either were still alive) visited this country as well and if they were shown any kind of reverance it would excite me all the more. It's like someone is taking notice that people still have their faith and hope and he is a representative of that. For me the pope is someone who has dedicated their life for the love of God. That is so big in my mind. To dedicate your whole life! Sometimes I find it hard to dedicate 15 minutes out of each day. It's exciting to see in this day and age, that just when it seems the world doesn't care about God or religion, that the world still respects someone who has given their life to that very thing. To following God and in that position to be dedicated to the guidance of others from a "holy" perspective. It's a ray of hope for the world. I especially loved seeing young people going to the cities and getting excited at seeing a man of God. It makes me happy.

Thanks Mike for these insights. I think we all wonder how we can be better examples with our lives. Does our witness point people to God or away from God? I am living with that question today.

A short time ago, the Pope made some comments that I took offense with about the Catholic Church being the only one true religion. He's entitled to his opinion, but I'm sure I wasn't the only one that took offense to his remarks- maybe even a few Catholics did, too. my point here is that those remarks, no matter how intended, did nothing to promote unity between Protestants & Catholics.
Some of the comments in this weeks blog will be taken in a similar manner & make some of our Catholic brothers & sisters angry. My wife (being a Roman Catholic) is one of them. Again, this will do nothing to promote unity.
The Christian Church (ie: meaning Protestant & Catholic) needs to uplift & support one another as we are to be a part of God's Church- not to be divisive. United we stand, divided we fall.....
It sounds like we have enough to correct & take care of within our own denomination. Maybe we should take care of our own "house" and let others take care of theirs.....

Can't we all just get along?!!!!:-)

Its a good point on why the women were excluded from the pagentry. As far as the money went I would rather see them spend it on that than on helicopters for the U.N. As long as the U.N. keeps talking and inviting terrorists like the Iranian president they shouldn't a nickel from anyone. I would also hope that his directing full attention at the priest's sex problems may help stop this ongoing problem. That alone to me would be the greatest benefit to his visit.

I was really interested in President Bush's reaction to the arrival of the Pope. The Pope is the only individual that President Bush has ever met at the airport, greeting him directly off the plane. With the events that followed, my thoughts go almost immediately to scripture's words on favoritism.

James chapter 2 starts with this:
"Suppose someone comes into your meeting dressed in fancy clothes and expensive jewelry, and another comes in who is poor and dressed in dirty clothes. If you give special attention and a good seat to the rich person, but you say to the poor one, 'You can stand over there, or else sit on the floor'- well, doesn't this discrimination show that your judgements are guided by evil motives?"

I've been to Washington D.C. I've seen the homeless people scaling the fence around the White House. I wonder if these people made it in to the Pope's birthday party?

I appreciate the Catholic church for what they do. College campuses are riddled with Newman Centers and CIA groups (Catholics in Action). I've met young Catholics who are truely evangelistic at heart, and have a passion for serving others. And let's not forget, that Cirilo Modi and family has been relocated to Dayton from Sudan due in large part to Catholic Services. Yet, with such a focus on serving the poor, the one person I would hope to show ultimate humility is the Pope. But I understand the difficulty of humility. I struggle with it daily. Because of this, I can't help but to see the Pope as an equal.

Thank for spotlighting the wasteful spending associated with the pope's visit. Perhaps before blogging or commenting we all should look closely for our own planks. A few weeks back I was struck by the same thoughts of seemingly wasteful spending when you spoke of your trip to NYC to deliver a check for the Darfur Project. Regardless of who paid for the trip, why not lead by example and send the check for a price of a postage stamp? I look forward to your thoughts concerning Rev. Wright's Tinley Park retirement mansion. Let the light shine in all directions.

I could not agree more David. We walk around with our agenda and a plank in our eye. The comments about other pastors and churchs have really turned me off. Mike calling the TV pastor an ass even after he prayed for his healing,why because his delivery is different a little flashy,or spoke with a southren accent,or white. I'll give some free advice if you can't say something uplifting shut up.Oh how soon we forget the waste we've had in this place over the years.

Have we all become so enamored of the sex appeal of the sound bytes that contemporary media pretends to be "news stories " that we can no longer read, hear, or understand statements (including those from blogs) within the context of the entire piece? Let's get a grip.

Dan and BFF...I think you need to go back and re-read the blog that you were referring to because it seems you missed the point. Mike did not call that pastor an ass, he referred to comments he (Mike) has made that made him look like a jackass. Mike has been one of the only pastors in the country to speak positively about Dr. Wright...he has been quoted in several big papers surrounding this. As far as spending goes, if you really knew Mike or his church there is no inappropriate spending that goes on there. He obviously was going to NYC to do more than deliver a check and so he just took that along with him. It's ironic you have written these statements about Mike because anyone who knows him knows that he practices what he preaches, unlike many christians out there. He is an amazing pastor and provides an excellent example of what a Christian man should be. I'd read these blogs more carefully before commenting, because what you said couldn't be further from the truth surrounding Mike, his church and his beliefs.

Lon..........No inappropriate spending???? I highly doubt that as every individual and every organization has spent inappropriatly. Are we sucking up?

Wow. Isn't this blog/forum for people to discuss how they think, feel, and believe on the issues of life? Then use some respect and play nice. This is a hard medium to communicate in without body language, voice inflection. One can only hope your comment about sucking up was not as nasty as it sounded. No church or pastor is perfect. No one's claiming to be either of those things. But look at the fruit if you question whether God is at work here. Thankfully, He works through the imperfect.

Lisa, I'm glad you spoke up. It's been gnawing at me the last couple days. I wanted to put a couple people in time-out until they could play nice. Plus I didn't know how to say what you did. But I concur, all you need to do is look at the fruit that is taking place at GUM. Thanks for speaking up.

Do not forget that the Pope is not only the leader of the Roman Catholic Church, but also a head of state (the Vatican is an independent nation). So in light of that, our presidents frequently "roll out the red carpet" for heads of state.

Though valid, Mike's point about extravagant spending, could be applied almost anywhere. Unless one takes a vow of poverty and revokes all human comfort, any spending that goes beyond basic needs can be considered extravagant. To a needy person whose child is starving, a pack of cigarettes is extravagant. How many of us have purchased a fancy car or a boat or a motorcycle or a home twice the size we really need? We justify and rationalize that because we tithe our 10-15% or give to the Sudan,we can spend whatever we have left on our personal wants and cravings! We in America are mostly extravagant--relatively speaking!

We all have planks in our eyes!

It requires great courage to state your stance. It is EXTREMEly biblical. In doing so, you lose some but you gain so many and so many needing strong leadership and a voice that they can trust is coming from Jesus. I also seek to be a part of a group who wants and seeks to make a difference in the paradigms and perspectives of those who have difficulty valuing life and seeing the need to value life. To not trust in God's provision for what He has created is lacking faith. May those who are strong in faith (who even may not have always been) lead those who are weak in faith. There is room...for life...always.
In policing society and freedom, it is always a matter of where to draw the line. We must constrain evil as a society through police protection etc., but there seems to be an inability in many to perceive where to stop when it comes to punishment. "Vengeance is mine says the Lord. I will repay."
We want God, but not all of Him. We want to claim Jesus but we want to retain our pet doctrines and our own desires of how WE think things should be done or how they should go rather than letting God's will be done. I struggle with things at times myself and don't always want His will, but deep down, I know He knows what He is doing and He knows how things should go for the benefit of all. But that's what faith is, right. Knowing He's not the bad guy and that trust is key. I hope to one day be part of a group whose annointing is able to give understanding and whose vision is true. May our Lord continue to guide you and enlighten you in understanding and wisdom, character and faith. You and your household and His church. God bless. M

Obama said it would be unfair to punish a girl/woman with an unwanted child. This is one reason he would continue to support abortion. That being said, he does not have credibility on this issue. Clinton would continue to support abortion but would try to make it rare. She is sounding more and more like President Clinton; a politician who likes to keep both sides happy. If ever we needed a litmus test on a controversial topic, abortion seems to qualify. We discuss our brokenness on Sunday’s. I’ll concede to your view on the capital punishment argument and also the squabble over the solution on the terror war. However, on abortion, I would have to support your view 100%. We should not be bothered on who this view would offend. Ending innocent life should not be discussed in the context of “make it rare” or “unfair to punish”. These lost souls have been taken and I would not want to be the responsible party doing the taking.

From one Pr Mike to another, you have articulated the priorities of my personal convictions. I cannot defend an abortion. And, I cannot choose for someone else something I will never have to face. I believe that many (perhaps not most, certainly not all) women who choose abortion did not choose pregnancy, or even sexual intercourse. Reduce abortions. That's the first step to ending them. Not laws.

The differences between abortion and capital punishment are so great that to rhetorically connect the two does neither topic justice. Abortion involves the all-too-often and all-too-easy termination of an utterly innocent life, often for the mere convenience of lifestyle for that innocent life's mother.

Capital punishment, on the other hand, couldn't be more different. Unlike abortions on demand, the death penalty is rarely imposed, and then only after great deliberation by the prosecutors who sought it, the jury who recommended it, the judge who imposed it, and the appellate courts who upheld it. This process creates a waiting period of years, rather than the 24-48 hours usually associated with abortions. And, of course, the death penalty is reserved for those who have been convicted of committing the worst forms of the worst crime. Not all murders qualify.

To say that one opposes both abortion and capital punishment because both end a sacred human life is beyond simplistic. Obviously, there are times and issues when following Jesus allows, and may even demand, a level of simplicity. However, the competing values of human life at play in matters of capital punishment don't lend themselves to such simplicity.

How can we as Christians credibly claim that nothing warrants a penalty of death when our entire faith is based upon the premise that our moral failings could only be paid, and our lives restored unto us, through death?

Contrary to what its opponents claim, the death penalty actually honors the value of human life. On the one hand, it affirms the value of the Victim's life -- a life so valuable that only the forfeiture of the life of the one who ended it can pay the debt Justice demands. More...

I think it is more a matter of taking the whole of the New Testament regarding a specific issue or theme and putting them together...much like a puzzle...add to this supernatural discernment and wisdom which God gives to ALL who ASK and it is remarkable how much of God's will we are then able to discern. It is extremely important to take any scripture in the context in which it was written as well.
Capital punishment has specifically to do with justice not salvation so the death of just anyone has no effect in the eyes of God when it comes to paying for their crime or being salvific in nature...only Jesus could do that. Preventing someone from commiting a crime by locking them up is different than taking their life. I do believe though that God does honor the decisions of sincere, Godly judges who feel that they have made the right decision concerning capital punishment. Only He can judge their heart.
A woman's right of choice ends when she chooses to sleep with someone. At that point, another life enters the picture and she is no longer free to make a decision regarding the life of another regardless of whether it is in her body or not. Rape, incest? Difficult stuff...I am the product of rape and I suffered greatly for it...but I know that one day and that day has already come to a large degree I will say that I am so...so glad that I made it and know one was able to murder me. It wasn't my fault. I am here...and how I was conceived was not God's will, but...He made room for me because He loves all human life.

In Rick Warrens book, A purpose driven life, he makes a point in saying that we may not have been planned by our mothers and fathers but we were planned by God. That seems like a good thing to remember in this discussion on abortion and capital punishment.
It's been a few years since I studied capital punishment in a Sociology class I took but I remember at the time I took that class, more black people committed what they called blue collar crimes such as robbery, forgeries, etc than whites. More white people had committed crimes of murder. Yet more blacks were on what is referred to as death row than whites. That just didn't make sense. I don't beleive we have have a perfected the system, in fact I remember about 8 years ago when there a black man on death row in texas and DNA testing was pretty new and the attorneys were asking for just a short stay while they did DNA testing on this man on death row. Govenor Bush denied that request. If I remember correctly it was just a matter of weeks they were asking for. I have a hard time making a decision to destroy what God had planned and created but that feeling aside, until we have a system that is perfected beyond human opinions and discriminates I could never support capital punishment. Regarding abortion it's not just the women who are raped who have made the decision and need our understanding. People make mistakes and many people don't know or beleive in a Savior so faith isn't even in their mindset. When young girls aren't being taught any other way who am I to judge them? Do I think abortion is wrong? You bet, but there is a verse in the bible where a man is asked if he understood what he was reading when he was reading Gods Word, his answer was how can i unless someone explains it to me. I feel the same about the decision that many women have made who have an abortion. Do they really understand there is really another way? How can they unless we show them? Do they understand the consequences, I don't think they fully do until they have to live with it for years. If they live in fear of the consequences of trying to raise a child in poverty or of the judgement of others, well I understand the choice they are making. I may not agree with it but I do feel compassion for them in having made that decision. It seems like a decision that many would struggle to live througout their lifetime.

Paul tells us.. whether you eat or drink, in all you do, do so for the glory of God. This verse ended what I thought was going to be a long drawn out study by me on the issue of abortion. Rev Martin Luther King said - beware a passive peace that ignores injustice. What greater injustice can there be to our creator than the taking of an innocent life.

Mike- terrific message! Kudos! Everyting that you wrote about is grounded in 1 Commandment (God gave us 10 Commands- not Suggestions): Thou Shalt Not Kill. God's Word.I have been a pro-life advocate for well over 20 years now. I have heard it all. Just let me mention that less than 5% of abortions are "due" to rape, incest, or life-threatening situations for the mother. Ron Paul, in his 20 years as an ob-gyn, has said that he NEVER encountered a "Life- threatening situation for the mom" that could not be medically managed.I could quote facts &
figures, but I will not. May I suggest 2 sites, that we in
pro-life work suggest to people who want to know more about
the FACTS of abortion? These 2 websites are:
www.abortionNO.org and www.standupgirl.com. Read the FACTS
about CHOICE, then make an informed decision.As Mother Teresa said, "The greatest destroyerof peace today is abortion." And the greatest book of all time, the Bible,is
the best resource of all. Check out Jeremiah 1:5, Exodus 21:22,23, Psalm 51:5, 139:13-16, Luke 1:41,44. Just a small sampling of His Word on those that He created in His
Image and Likeness. Choose LIFE!
And Micahaiah, your beginnings certainly sound less than ideal, but I think God is pleased that your Mother chose life, don't you? One sin (of rape) does not justify a 2nd
sin (abortion). God made YOU,He has a plan for you-you are
special to Him. You are His! God Bless You and Your Mom!

Michaiah:

I don't understand what you're saying. Perhaps you could clarify? If capital punishment is morally repugnant, than no amount of sincere feeling on the part of those who impose it will change that. It's not the sincerity of belief that matters, but the veracity.

Let's not forget that the Levitical law is peppered with prohibitions that were punishable by death. Hard to believe that the principle of the death penalty itself is immoral or un-Christian.

Suzanne:

The inequities in the administration of the death penalty on a societal level are problematic, and must be addressed. However, they do not affect the appropriateness of the penalty in a particular case. The fact that others who should have received the death penalty did not does not invalidate the imposition of death in those cases that received it.

Or, to put it another way: the fact that everyone else on the highway was speeding does not create a legitimate objection to your receiving a speeding ticket if you were, in fact, speeding. This is true even if you were targeted for an inappropriate reason.

My main reason for writing is to say I'm proud of Pastor Mike for having the courage & strength for stating his position on these issues. Jesus , in the Great Commandment summed up all the commandments by saying we are to love the Lord our God with our heart, soul, strength & mind, and to love our neighbor as ourself. For me, this equates with respecting life- all of it. God creates life, and God should be the one to take it when it's time. For those of you that don't believe that life begins at conception, I ask have you ever seen an ultrasound when the baby is only weeks old & you can see hands, feet, a heart beating, etc.? This is NOT a "blob of tissue" as some would have you believe. For those of you who believe in a woman's "right to choose", have you ever really seen what the result of your "choice" is (ie: the end result of an abortion). It's body parts, not tissue.
I have had the opportunity to hold up the graphic pictures showing the result of "choice". I had a man come up to me & threaten to kick my behind because the pictues were "disgusting". I was able to end the guys argument by simply stating that I agreed completely with him that it was the most disgusting thing I had ever seen. so why do people hold up these "disgusting pictures"? Fr. Frank Pavone answers that question best by saying that "abortion will only end when people see abortion" If we can't respect the life that God creates, how can we have respect for anything else?
Mike- when others ( pastors, politicians, etc.) don't have the backbone to stand up for life (at all stages), I'm glad you do. It may make people mad, drive some away, etc.

Once again Mike you've broached a topic that brings much thought and discussion and you've shared a view by Mrs. Clinton that I actually agree with.

I agree with you about valuing the sanctity of life and I agree with Hillary that on rare occasions human beings are forced to make decisions that may require the taking of life in order to protect and preserve life. I could not imagine being a lady and having to make a decision that involves taking a child's life in order to preserve her own life. These are the rare occasions that I believe Mrs. Clinton is referring to. Is this breaking the "Thall shall not kill commandment?" That is a question only God can answer. But it is taking a life in order to preserve a life.

I also believe that capital punishment is wrong, but on rare occasions I can see where it is needed. Currently there are about 3000 inmates nationwide on death row and over 600,000 inmates that have committed violent, murderous crimes that could have ended in capital punishment. This is 5%, is that rare? I don't know, maybe, but I did find that since the reenactment of capital punishment in 1976 the number of violent crimes have been cut in half. This indicates to me that life is being protected and preserved through the rare use of capital punishment. Do the people that inject these sociopathic, violent people break the "Thou shall not kill commandment" when they do this? I don't think so considering they are doing there job which is a part of a law that has contributed to cutting crimes involving murder in half. Facts and figures show that this law has served to protect and preserve life.

Jay, with all due respect, you are stradding the fence on both issues.I am a medical professional, and also a pro-life activist, who has traversed many states doing what I believe God has called me to do, and am humble but knowledgable in abortion. PLEASE- I do want to know- when it is NECESSARY to end a child's life, to save it's mother? Please- just one example would be wonderful. This is a generation where 1 out of 3 children are missing due to abortion. 90% of women who are told that they have a Down's Syndrome baby in their uterus, chose to abort. Children today, will grow up ,not knowing how sweet and loving, Down's Children are, and this is just one example
of our "disposable" society. We Christians pick and choose what God law we will obey (ie: your example of capital punishment). Yes, it may be a great crime deterrent, but it is not what God has COMMANDED of us. God Bless Us All!

Greg-straddling the fence I am on the topic of what constitutes rare. I would not abort and I too am a health care professional and the father of a multiply handicapped son. He is my pride and joy. The statistic you quoted about aborted downs syndrome babies brings a tear to my eye. My point is if a lady is about to lose her life she has a very difficult decision to make. It is her free will and she is the one that pays the consequence either way.

Greg-I'm as passionate about recovery as you are about pro-life. Since you are a health care professional I am sure you've witnessed the deadly effects of alcohol. Alcohol has been the cause of many innocent lives. Why is alcohol legal? When you get a moment please compare these two issues and let me know your feelings.

As for capital punishment I believe God has commanded us to not commit premeditated murder.

Thanks for the challenging questions and God Bless!

The truth is always the truth. It can not be changed or manipulated. All life is created by God. All life is precious. No person is to take another's life.

Politics is an area that is sickening to me because it causes people to accept the unacceptable. In my opinion there should be no party line or special interests in the US. In God we trust and Godly people should lead us. I pray that this nation votes the Godly choice. Whatever that may be.

Kudos Suzanne. "Forgive them Father, for THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO."

Lance, you have a very strong sense of justice and I know what that feels like. The gift of Prophecy doesn't always feel like a gift though and that's why it is critical to really get an overview of the New Covenant in contrast and comparison with the OT as well as to know if and in what ways it has application for us today. The Apostle Paul murdered a multitude of people and yet brought us much of the NT. He was also ultimately very close to those whose family members he took part in putting in prison and brutally murdering.
What I mean is this: We live among two Kingdoms. The Kingdom of Light which those who are reborn have communion and the kingdom of darkness which holds sway over the world of men as a whole as well as a large portion of fallen angels. As believers of a New Covenant, we no longer are held to the mandates of the OT, otherwise we would still be stoning children for simply disrespecting their parents. The message of the gospel is a window of opportunity for the forgiveness of all who accept the message. If the first Covenant given had been able to accomplish what God had wanted, their wouldn't have been need for a second (the NT). Their is so much to this conversation. If you're comfortable with going to GUM'S online community, we can talk more about it. It is an in-depth topic and has great impact because of the scope it has on scripture. Involvement in politics is important I believe especially where it involves the restraint of evil in a society which otherwise would be unprotected from the powers of darkness; however, God's expectations concerning both kingdoms are different and He values authority greatly so even though He's ultimately in charge, He gives authority to men and respects and upholds their decisions to a degree if their attempt is to control those who are unresponsive to living within certain Godly boundaries. The Church serves as a sign to the fallen angels and to the world. While we are involved in the political arena, we allow ourselves to be frustrated by the seeming lack of ability to grasp spiritual concepts. In God's timing, we..with Christ will deliver the Kingdom to Israel and we will rule with Him and them. It's a vast subject...but one that I love and thoroughly enjoy studying and discussing.

Posted By: The Rev. Michael J. Wollman on Apr 17, 2008 11:46PM

My answers follow your statements and begin with (*):

How can we as Christians credibly claim that nothing warrants a penalty of death when our entire faith is based upon the premise that our moral failings could only be paid, and our lives restored unto us, through death?

*The answer to this question is in the first line of the question..."We as christians" should not be deciding who lives and who dies. We leave that up to God. Christ himself said "let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone." I would ask you to search your heart and drop your stone as each of them did.

Contrary to what its opponents claim, the death penalty actually honors the value of human life. On the one hand, it affirms the value of the Victim's life -- a life so valuable that only the forfeiture of the life of the one who ended it can pay the debt Justice demands. Likewise (and this is the point almost universally missed by capital punishment opponents), the imposition of the death penalty is an affirmation of the value of the life of the criminal itself -- it is his life and his life alone that is valuable enough to pay the debt owed for the murder of an innocent victim.

*We do not need to put one to death to affirm the value of another. We are all created equally are value has been defined. And yes, I have lost the lives of two loved ones at the hands of a murderer...I do not wish to put them to death.

God's claim of exclusive jurisdiction over vengeance is hardly applicable to society writ large. Unless ya'll want civilization to quickly descend into anarchy, a society must have the ability to seek Justice in order to preserve Order, which is a necessary precondition for Liberty to flourish. All criminal punishment is "vengeful" and retributive, regardless of the severity.